“sign this folks

http://tinyurl.com/73zkczu

Devolve all control over Energy and natural resources, including the Crown Estates, in Wales

Responsible department: Wales Office

We ask that the Wales Office and UK Government hold talks with the Welsh Government and Welsh Assembly to devolve all powers regarding energy and natural resources, including the Crown Estates, to Wales. The People of Wales should be responsible for their own energy and natural resources, with all decisions regarding these matters made in Wales by the Welsh Government and Welsh Assembly.”

“The discussion leader above is a partial copy & paste from the Aberavon Plaid Cymru website.
Quote: "Jonathan Edwards hoped to introduce a bill in Westminster which would give the Welsh Government powers over energy generation in Wales – something supported by both Labour and the Conservatives in their Welsh general election manifesto last year, where they argued that there should be an increase from the present 50MW limit."

I couldn't remember reading anything in the WAG elections about devolving energy powers to the Welsh Assembly, so I have had to download info from the internet tonight.
I have searched the Labour Wales manifesto of 2011 and I can find nothing that indicates demanding energy powers.
I have searched for "50MW" and produced no results.

Russellm2010: Please help me find what you and Aberavon Plaid Cymru claim.
Tell me on what page of the Labour manifesto of last year does it back your statement.”

“Between 32% and 40% of the electricity used in Wales is produced at Wylfa B. What is the position of Plaid Cymru regarding nuclear power today and what will their position be tomorrow?

From Albert Owen MP (Ynys Mon, Labour) during yesterday's early motion debate: "The Labour party supports increasing the Assembly's devolved powers over renewable energy. We put that in our Assembly manifesto and argued for it in the House when we debated the Energy Bill—my hon. Friend {Huw Irranca-Davies} did so—but unfortunately it was not taken up."”

“Labour Manifesto – Page 98
http://tinyurl.com/3jxcc4x

Conservative Manifesto – Page 15
http://tinyurl.com/88xpdbb

Lib Dem Manifesto – Page 56
http://tinyurl.com/6frlqyz”

“Labour Manifesto – Page 98
http://tinyurl.com/3jxcc4x

Conservative Manifesto – Page 15
http://tinyurl.com/88xpdbb

Lib Dem Manifesto – Page 56
http://tinyurl.com/6frlqyz”

“@Welshie26
From page 98 of Labour Wales Manifesto 2011.

We will:
•Provide people with the skills and opportunities to take advantage of the growth in new renewable technologies and the employment that will come with the 'greener' society.
• Work with industry to move to resilient low carbon energy production. We will bring together the major generators to share best practice in carbon reduction.
• Continue to seek responsibility for renewable energy consents up to 100MW on both sea and land, enabling Wales to move quicker in providing clean energy solutions for all.
• Maximise the environmental, social and economic benefits of our investment to help reduce climate change, eradicate fuel poverty and boost economic development and regeneration throughout Wales. This will include recognition of the contribution to be made by generators, suppliers, distributors and regulators of energy.
• Establish a national infrastructure planning system for waste, energy and water helping ensure planning arrangements are streamlined and in line with Wales' national policy.
• Recognise that the Severn Estuary represents a strategically important source of renewable energy with the potential to generate 5 per cent of UK electricity supply. We will work to help ensure that this potential is harnessed.

NOTHING CONTAINED IN THE ABOVE C&P MENTIONS DEVOLUTION OF ENERGY POWERS.
IF YOU WANT TO PRESENT A CASE, MAKE SURE THAT WHAT YOU WRITE CAN BE VERIFIED.”

“Why Dont Labour want Wales to have control over energy

OK - Here's the full list - Aye (To the Motion).

1) Paul Flynn (Newport W)
2) Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central)
3) Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnor)
4) Mark Williams (Ceredigion)
5) Hywel Williams (Arfon)
6) Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionydd)
7) Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen E and Dinefwr)

No (To the Motion).

1) Guto Bebb (Aberconwy)
2) Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan)
3) David Davies (Monmouth)
4) Simon Hart (Carmarthen E and S Pembs.)
5) Chris Bryant (Rhondda)
6) Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley)
7) Geraint Davies (Swansea West)
8) Wayne David (Caerphilly)
9) Chris Evans (Islwyn)
10) Hywel Francis (Aberavon)
11) Nia Griffiths (Llanelli)
12) David Hanson(Delyn)
13) Dai Havard (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)
14) Sian James (Swansea East)
15) Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South)
16) Huw Irranca Davies (Ogmore)
17) Ian Lucas (Wrexham)
18) Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth)
19) Paul Murphy (Torfaen)
20) Jessica Morden (Newport East)
21) Albert Owen (Ynys Mon)
22) Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd)
23) Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent)
24) Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside)



thats one Labour MP in Wales for the motion . now dont tell me Labours standing up for Wales . they are sitting down on the sofa more like”

“Should this discussion section be used for Party Political Propaganda?”

“hows it propaganda , are you saying that list of people is wrong . or you saying it because you can't answer why your Labour party jumped into bed with the tories to stop this motion . Anyhow got things to do now . ill leave the folk see for themselves which MPs have so little respect for people in Wales running more of their own affairs .”

“@Russellm2010
Your opening statement is a direct copy & paste from the Aberavon Plaid Cymru website. You include a link to a Party Political website. Your statement is not factual as there was no commitment in the Labour Party Manifesto of 2011 to devolve energy generating powers to the Assembly. You post about "extraordinary scenes" in the House of Commons when there were none. http://tinyurl.com/7uxb5ov”

“Anthony your splitting hairs , your avoiding the fact labour sided with tories to go against the motion .”

“Excuse me, but the cut and paste on the Aberavon Plaid Site was fliunched from me, and the extraordinary scene in the House of commons was Labour and Tories voting together against Wales. Do the Welsh people know that Labour are in co-alition with the Tories when no one is looking?”

“@Paulnj
Your'e spinning.
Labour members did not vote against Wales. They voted against an EDM. Link to the "They Work For You" website and read about it. http://tinyurl.com/7uxb5ov
There is nothing extraordinary about MPs voting against EDMs.
Your statement: "Labour are in co-alition with the Tories" is utterly spurious and I hope that Plaid Cymru have the decency to dis-associate themselves from such complete drivel.

@Russellm2010
Siding with the Tories? - False.
Getting into bed with the Tories? - False.
Stating that Labour is Dooyah's Party - False.
I do not post comments on behalf of any political party.”

“@Dooyah.

Here we go. "Continue to seek responsibility for renewable energy consents up
to 100MW on both sea and land, enabling Wales to move quicker in providing clean energy solutions for all."

100 Megawatts is over 50 Megawatts last time I checked. Go and do your research more thoroughly before attempting to smear and discredit other people.”

“@Jim_Dunckley
What!?
A manifesto commitment regarding renewable energy is way short of calling for devolved powers to regulate electricity generation.
Yes, I am aware that 100 Megawatts is over 50 Megawatts. The questions to you are: -
Why aren't you reading the posts from Rusellm2010 and responding to him?
and
Why do you need to check that 100 is geater than 50?

btw: I did not start this discussion. I am pointing out major flaws in the postings of others and that includes you.”

“@Dooyah

You obviously don't understand how the devolved system works in Wales. Planning authorities in Wales do not have powers to consent power stations with an installed capacity of over 50 Megawatts.

The Labour Party's manifesto is therefore effectively calling for devolution of power consents for power stations with an installed capacity over 50 Mw. It's not rocket science. It doesn't matter whether the power station is renewable generation or fossil fuel generation.

The reality is that Labour MPs have connived with the Tories to block devolution of power consents, and Labour in Cardiff is obviously nothing more than a little dog on a short leash.”

“Dooyah, is missing the point, when you provide a step change like 50 megawatts, you invite developers to submit plans over 50mega to take it out of local hands, like the bio-fuel app at llynfy (Bridgend). Or mega sized wind turbines that industrialise rural wales, to keep pristeine chiltern hills from desicration.
And last time I looked when Labour and Tories consistantly vote together to the detriment of Wales, it is either an unholy alliance, a grubbly coalition or a supreme act of childishness.”

“For heaven's sake, Mr. Dunckley, read the exact wording in the Labour manifesto of 2011. There is no mention of non-renewable energy or devolving all energy generating powers to the Assembly. Look at my posting of Wednesday, February 01 2012, 10:44PM and try to understand bullet point 3.

In the Western Mail newspaper, on 01 February 2012, the Labour MP for Ogmore remarked that Jonathan's EDM proposal was not so much pro-Wales as pro-mischief. Huw Irranca-Davies went on to say that if Jonathan Edwards MP came up with a better thought-through motion in future, Labour's front bench would give serious consideration to backing it.

Why not help Plaid Cymru by getting Plaid politicians to decide whether the Party is for nuclear power or against it.

con·nive (k-nv)
intr.v. con·nived, con·niv·ing, con·nives
1. To cooperate secretly in an illegal or wrongful action; collude: The dealers connived with customs officials to bring in narcotics.
2. To scheme; plot.
3. To feign ignorance of or fail to take measures against a wrong, thus implying tacit encouragement or consent.

Well Jim Dunckley, either produce proof of Labour/Tory connivance on this issue or withdraw your remark.”

“@Dooyah.

So you're not a Labour Party apologist but you cite a mud-slinging comment by Huw-Irranca Davies. You could have picked a more objective source, couldn't you? Lol.

As I said before, you don't understand how devolution works, and to prove my point you refer me to a bullet point that I had already cited, which proves that Labour is requesting devolution of power consents. YOU need to read the wording - "to continue to seek responsibility" - from where Dooyah? Guernsey? They are "seeking responsibility from London". Which means that an order will have to be put before the English Parliament.

You are quite right though that Labour's manifesto does not mention devolving ALL energy power consents to Wales. There is a ceiling of 100 MW on Labour's commitment, which just means that Labour are not seeking parity with Scotland or even the tiny Northern Ireland statelet. It demonstrates a pathetic lack of ambition. It just goes to show that Labour are a divided Party who are supporting far greater measure of devolution in Scotland while making timid demands in Wales - demands that the Tory government are happy to ignore.

As to the difference between renewable and non-renewable generation? Of course the manifesto doesn't make that distinction. Because if it did we might start to ask why Labour in Cardiff are handing out environmental permits for much larger gas-fired power stations in Pembroke - stations which mean that their Renewables targets are meaningless guff.”

“@Jim_Dunckley
So, you do not know the difference between renewable energy and non-renewable energy.
You fail to prove connivance between Labour and the Tories on UK energy generation.
Plaid Cymru doesn't know whether to scratch watches or wind backsides regarding nuclear power.
You, at long last, admit that the Labour Party manifesto of 2011 does not contain any commitment to devolving all energy policy to Wales. Well, that's something.

Quote from Jim Dunckley, February 05 2012, 10:46AM:-
"YOU need to read the wording - "to continue to seek responsibility" - from where Dooyah? Guernsey? They are "seeking responsibility from London". Which means that an order will have to be put before the English Parliament."

Posting from Dooyah, February 01 2012, 9:56PM:-
From Albert Owen MP (Ynys Mon, Labour) during yesterday's early motion debate: "The Labour party supports increasing the Assembly's devolved powers over renewable energy. We put that in our Assembly manifesto and argued for it in the House when we debated the Energy Bill—my hon. Friend {Huw Irranca-Davies} did so—but unfortunately it was not taken up."”

“For the public record:

1) After 13 years of silence on the issue, so-called "Welsh" Labour are now seeking devolution of power consents from London. While their party was in power in London, they stayed silent on the issue, until they went into coalition with Plaid - when they subtly shifted their position.

2) They put it their manifesto last year, knowing it would never happen, because the Tories are in power.

3) A Plaid MP tabled a motion seeking support for devolution of power consents. While Labour were in coalition with Plaid in the Assembly Labour made it clear that it was their preference to seek devolution of power consents.

4) Despite "Welsh" Labour's preference, Westminster Labour votes with the Tories in WESTMINSTER to defeat the motion.

5) Conclusion: Labour are either A) Clueless, B) Divided or C) Political opportunists who are engaging in a cynical game with the Welsh electorate in the face of a discredited TAN 8 - which of course Carwyn Jones was the Architect of.”

“@Dooyah

Thought you might be interested in responding to my letter - presumably under your real name and not the pseudonym "Dooyah". Some people seem to be Labouring under the impression that you might be a councillor! Lol.

http://tinyurl.com/86p3p63”

“I'm not. If you want Cllr comments, try twj1943.
Glad to see you acknowledge that the Labour Party stood no chance of getting a small concession regarding renewable energy consents whilst the Tories are in power. At least you've grasped a little piece of reality.”

“@Dooyah.

So you've actually conceded that Labour have been asking for something that they knew they were never going to get. LOL.

I rest my case.”

“Jim
Read my posting on this thread for Wednesday, February 01 2012, 9:56PM
I accepted that the Welsh Assembly was unlikely to get an increase in devolved powers over renewable energy, whilst the Tories were in power, some time ago and it's a pity that your Party didn't realise that.

I assume that Plaid Cymru's MP, Jonathan Edwards, knew that his EDM calling for complete devolution of all energy generation, including nuclear, was a no-hoper well before he stood up in the HoC and proposed it.

I asked you, in an earlier posting, to tell us what Plaid Cymru's postition is regarding nuclear power? So far, you have not responded.”

“@Dooyah

Nuclear power is a red herring. Why don't you tell us about the cosy relationship between Labour and the fossil fuel lobby, particularly gas companies like Centrica/British Gas who have an open door into the Labour Assembly Government, even while they hammer the public with profiteering wholesale gas and electricity prices.

Oh, and let's not forget the one about the Monopoly that sponsored a Labour Party conference a few years ago - the monopoly being a very large company called National Grid.”

“Jim
The discussion on this thread is about your Party demanding total devolved powers in Wales for elecricity generation including nuclear.
Nuclear power is far from a "red herring" in Plaid Cymru because of the pro/anti views expressed by your politicians.

The rest of your last posting are matters that I cannot answer because I'm not a Labour politician, I'm not a spokesperson for the Labour Party and I do not write for any political party. However, I did try a search on the internet for "National Grid Sponsor Labour" and discovered that the electricity network provider sponsored a friendly football match (Labour vs Journalists) at last year's Labour Conference.”

“@ Dooyah

You're right, the discussion is about Plaid placing an EDM calling for devolution of consents for large power stations over 50 Mw - and about how Labour connived with the Tories to block it. Ultimately, it really is that simple.”

“Jim
I asked you to prove connivance in my post of Saturday, February 04 2012, 3:54PM.
If it is "simple", where's your proof.
Your Plaid Cymru MP wanted control of all electricity generation in Wales and that includes the Wyfla nuclear power station which produces 980 Mw. Also Plaid Cymru want planning control of all future power stations.
When I look at how many senior Plaid Cymru politicians are anti-nuclear and the number of Plaid Cymru supporters who are against nuclear and wind power, I can see that Jonathan Edwards' EDM was doomed from the start.

Your connivance/conspiracy theory is utter rubbish.”